German Physiotherapist ---> Master/working in english speaking country?

[it's raining]

Hello

I have almost finished my basic educational training to become a physiotherapist in germany.
I'd like to leave my country asap after that and move to another english speaking country/country where physiotherapy is an actual job and not just an overeducated nothing. (specific reasons are too many to address individually)

Countries i would prefer are:
Great Britain, Australia, Canada (Holland - obviously not english but afaik a lot of ppl speak german and english there as well but i don't think they would be very accepting of someone who is not able to speak dutch)

I'd like to know what i need to do to be able to work in each of these/what kind of qualification i would need to apply for a master in physiotherapy (and also Osteopathy.. or is that a completely different way of education?)

I have not graduated from high school. I have the graduation of one school level below (i think grammar/middle school i'm not an expert on school systems though.. let's just say i have finished 10 years of school..) and i wondered if that would be a problem?!

By now i'm pretty sure that i will need to add a Bachelor in germany before i can even think of moving?! But i have no real clue if that would even be enough/what kind of ordeals i'd have to go through to get accepted in each of these countries.




All kinds of information/links or anything else that might help are highly appreciated.

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[Fyzzio]

Hi,
a Master in Physio enables you to specialise in a certain area. E.g., there is a Master in Neurological Physio or Musculoskeletal Physio etc.. As a basis for this, you will need a BSc (Bachelor of Science) in Physiotherapy.

Work: In most English speaking countries you have to be registered as a Physiotherapist to be able to apply for a work visa or similar, which then enables you to go and look for work. Please check their websites for specific application requirements. I believe that they all require some kind of English test and will examine your undergraduate programme. Therefore, all your papers have to be translated into English.
Great Britain: HPC - Health Professions Council - Apply
Australia: Physiotherapy Board of Australia - Registration
Canada: CICIC::Information for foreign-trained physiotherapists > Occupational profiles for selected trades and professions

Study: I am not sure about requirements for that, but you should be able to find this on the websites as well.

Osteopathy is indeed a different occupation/ educational pathway.

where physiotherapy is an actual job and not just an overeducated nothing

I find your comment rather intriguing, as the German Physio diploma is internationally not neccessarily accepted due to the low level of education standards (if I may say so).
But good on you for trying to optimise your education!!!!

Good luck,
Fyzzio

[it's raining]

Another question came up recently:

How much time does a physiotherapist have for treatment (manual therapy / medical gymnastics especially - i do wonder if there even is any difference in the treatment prescribed or does it simply say "physiotherapy" and you can do whatever you feel is right?) in GB/Canada/Australia ?

[Fyzzio]

Hi,

medical gymnastics especially

What do you mean with "medical gymnastics"? Is that some kind of group therapy? Or are you talking Sports Physiotherapy? Or Physio in a Resthome?

any difference in the treatment prescribed

In Australia, NZ or GB (not sure about Canada, but likely to be the same) Physio is not prescribed!!! We get a referral from other health care professionals. Those referrals give a short history and mention the current complaints. Or the clients come just by themselves. The rest, e.g. determining the course and duration, frequency and type of intervention is what you have to figure out yourself.
Sometimes your treatment is covered by an Insurance, and they might have ideas about how many treatments they cover. And they determine the cost, so you will have to adjust your treatment time to that or ask the client to pay a surcharge to receive a more decent treatment duration.

Hope that helps.

Cheers,
Fyzzio

[it's raining]

What do you mean with "medical gymnastics"?

Medical gymnastics is the result i get when looking up "Krankengymnastik" in a dictionairy.
As you implied (i assume) in germany we are not allowed to think for ourselves but only do what is prescribed. "Krankengymnastik" is the prescription for all types of 1 to 1 training(wether it's muscle/perception or relaxation techniques)/stretching/posture improvement/mobilisation(passive+active) (that about sums it up).

In Australia, NZ or GB (not sure about Canada, but likely to be the same) Physio is not prescribed!!!The rest, e.g. determining the course and duration, frequency and type of intervention is what you have to figure out yourself.

Hmm i expected as much.. i'd prefer a more precise answer if possible. If i get a patient after he had an Apoplex cerebri, i'd want to spend as much as time as possible on his recovery process. Though i doubt that the average joe pays for 6 hours of physiotherapy every day.

Let me rephrase my question: Even if there are no laws that state how much time you get, i assume that there are inofficial norms that determine how much time a patient is willing to buy. (Meaning most physiotherapists charge you for 6*30 minutes after a humerus fracture - if you suddenly want to charge your patient for 10*2hours he'll be wary and wonder if you're trying to screw him over).

Excluding electrotherapy/resting time and so on.. how much time are patients on average willing to buy? (or a time range.. like 20 to 60 minutes for most orthopedic patients, 60 to 90 minutes for most neurologic)

I know generalizing is bad, but in order to simplify this matter i'd be grateful if you did. Even if it's rather vague.

[Fyzzio]

Hi,
let me give you estimates for what would happen here in NZ. I know that Australia is fairly similar:
There is a huge difference between medical problems and accident related problems. We do not have compulsory health insurance (as I heard you have got in Germany), but compulsory accident insurance and a free of charge public system.

In private practice, we therefore mainly see accident related cases paid for by insurance, e.g. musculoskeletal/ orthopaedic/ sports symptoms. The insurance has guidelines as to the expected amount of total treatment sessions and usually, you are able to stay well within. There are also a few clinics who see private respiratory and private neurological clients. Treatment duration is anything between 20 and 60 minutes and patients come 1 - 4x per week. Goal setting is a major and all clients are expected to do a thorough home exercise programme in order to maintain achieved progress. I presume that is the same all over the world.
E.g. (I made this up) a client comes in with thoracic pain and inability to move after twisting his back; you might see him for an hour initially to get history and mobilise/ manipulate and tell him to come back next day; you would see him then for a check and a home exercise programme (30 min) and again for a review after a week (30 min).
Someone with a mobility problem after an ankle fracture might need to come 3x weekly for 30 min each for a fortnight and might then reduce to once weekly 20min for 3 weeks.

Neurological cases, such as Strokes, are generally cared for in hospitals on acute wards, stroke units and rehab wards and later on at home/ community. Treatment duration in hospital is anything between 20 minutes to 2x 60min per day. It depends on what you have analysed as neccessary and on what the patient is able to tolerate. In the community = at home, people get seen for 30 to 60 minutes, according to who pays (public = 30 min; insurance = 60 min). For private long term neuro clients it depends entirely on the contract you have made with them and the goals they have set to achieve. If you can no longer justify why your intervention is beneficial or can no longer show the achievement of progress, no-one is happy to pay. Neither the public system, nor the insurance, nor the patient. ;-) And it is part of our documentation to each provider to justify our intervention and demonstrate achievement....

Now this is all terribly generalised and it feels quite awkward to write it down, but there you go.
everyone - please feel free to also make comments!!!!

Cheers,
Andrea

[physiogirl76]

Hi there,

well, I think, I need to reply to this thread as well since I`m a German physio. I did my first training in Germany, but continued for another year in the Netherlands to get my bachelor degree (since most physio degrees in Germanys are not academic...even though it`s slowly changing towards a university taught degree). I have worked in Germany, NZ and Australia (that`s where I am at the moment).

Fyzzio has pretty much summed it up very clearly: Most patients you would see in private practice here in Australia have private health insurance which contributes (depending on your specific cover) to the cost of physio treatment. You get a certain amount per year to spend on certain services (in this case: physiotherapy) - when you exceed this amount, you have to pay the full amount for the treatment yourself.
Since physiotherapists work independently in Australia (as well as NZ and most other English speaking countries), you don`t need a doctor`s referral to see a physio (unless in an outpatients department in a public hospital where physio treatments are free). Some doctors though will give the patient a letter (to hand it over to the physio) where the past medical history is outlined and then asks the physiotherapist for an assessment/treatment. Never ever would a doctor here determine the frequency/duration or sort of treatment (like it`s the case in Germany). It´s entirely up to the treating physio to use his/her clinical judgement, set goals with the client, assess and treat appropriately and then discharge the client when the goals are met. It`s VERY different from the "German" way of thinking Even though, most experienced physios in Germany would do exactly the same, but it`s not really well educated in physio schools. It usually develops with your post grad courses (e.g. manual therapy).

Medical gymnastics is the result i get when looking up "Krankengymnastik" in a dictionairy.

Well, you can`t really translate the term, as this is very specific to the German system. Physiotherapy is the term, I`d prefer to use and this is the international term.

As you implied (i assume) in germany we are not allowed to think for ourselves but only do what is prescribed.

Really??? Well, I don`t know about you, but as far as I´m concerned, I always use my brain (i.e. think) when I see patients, no matter, where in the world I´m treating these patients. Even when I worked in Germany, where the patient needs a referral and the doctor needs to come up with the diagnosis (something like "lumbar syndrome" or "shoulder-arm-syndrome"....great! what a useful "diagnosis") and the treatment modality (e.g. manual therapy combined with electrotherapy), I have ALWAYS assessed the patients and then treated accordingly. I always considered the prescription more like a document for billing purposes (as insurances pay different rates depending on treatment modalities), rather than a guide for treatment or worse: a substitute for my own clinical judgement. In my past jobs in Germany, we always had the freedom to adjust treatments. I would hope that you do the same.

Anyway, enough of my rant. My point is: Physios here enjoy greater autonomy than in Germany which also means greater responsibility. But it´s so much better After working in NZ and AUS, I went back to Germany for a year, but I had a real hard time to adjust professionally: I felt it was very rigid (prescriptions) and I couldn`t stand the snobbishness of most doctors who considered themselves "superior" (whereas here, everybody works in a team and there are little hierachies).
So I returned to Australia

Cheers, Melanie

[it's raining]

Really??? Well, I don`t know about you, but as far as I´m concerned, I always use my brain (i.e. think) when I see patients, no matter, where in the world I´m treating these patients. Even when I worked in Germany, where the patient needs a referral and the doctor needs to come up with the diagnosis (something like "lumbar syndrome" or "shoulder-arm-syndrome"....great! what a useful "diagnosis") and the treatment modality (e.g. manual therapy combined with electrotherapy), I have ALWAYS assessed the patients and then treated accordingly. I always considered the prescription more like a document for billing purposes (as insurances pay different rates depending on treatment modalities), rather than a guide for treatment or worse: a substitute for my own clinical judgement. In my past jobs in Germany, we always had the freedom to adjust treatments. I would hope that you do the same.

Anyway, enough of my rant. My point is: Physios here enjoy greater autonomy than in Germany which also means greater responsibility. But it´s so much better After working in NZ and AUS, I went back to Germany for a year, but I had a real hard time to adjust professionally: I felt it was very rigid (prescriptions) and I couldn`t stand the snobbishness of most doctors who considered themselves "superior" (whereas here, everybody works in a team and there are little hierachies).
So I returned to Australia

First of all, thanks to both of you. Very helpful.

@Physiogirl
What you said in the lower quoted part + I don't like the attitude to see the prescription as a document for billing purposes (which i see in most Physios i have met so far). I can see no reason to bend the law in order to provide better service to a broken system. Neither do i want to provide inferior/useless treatment to my patients. So obviously not working in germany is the logical choice.

Going over all the things that bother me would take too long and wouldn't be very productive as well so nevermind.

[Amrush]

Hello,
I have a B.Ed in Physical Education but i always wanted to study Physical Therapy in the sport field and for the disables since am an athlete, so am looking for an upgrade and advice from who is already in the working field and studied in Germany.
SO I have a question regarding studying Physiotherapy in Germany comparing to the USA and Australia. SO is studying Physiotherapy good in Germany as a curriculum and accreditation comparing to the USA DPT???
Please Help

[Fyzzio]

Hi
just a quick question before someone answers your question.

In Germany any programme will be presented entirely in German - how good are your German language skills?

Cheers,
Fyzzio

[physiogirl76]

Hi there,

Fyzzio already made a valid point - how good is your German? Obviously, programmes in Germany are taught in German so good language skills are a must.
My second question would be: Where would you like to work after you´ve graduated? It would make sense to complete your degree in the country where you intend to work later on as the registration process for physiotherapists is a pain if you want to work overseas....

In general, I would say that programmes in english speaking countries (e.g. Australia, USA, UK, NZ etc) exceed the standards in Germany, simply because these are academic degrees. Germany is slowly getting on track with regards to introducing entry-level Bachelor degrees but it´s a struggle and will definately take years to be fully established.

If you don´t intend to settle in Germany and pursue an international career, I would honestly study in Australia, the UK or even the Netherlands (there are a few programmes which are taught in English e.g. in Amsterdam).

Hello,
I have a B.Ed in Physical Education but i always wanted to study Physical Therapy in the sport field and for the disables since am an athlete, so am looking for an upgrade and advice from who is already in the working field and studied in Germany.
SO I have a question regarding studying Physiotherapy in Germany comparing to the USA and Australia. SO is studying Physiotherapy good in Germany as a curriculum and accreditation comparing to the USA DPT???
Please Help

[Amrush]

In Germany any programme will be presented entirely in German - how good are your German language skills?
Fyzzio

am very good in German and am going to take a 4 month course to strengthen it further
Thanks

- - - Updated - - -

Hi there,

Fyzzio already made a valid point - how good is your German? Obviously, programmes in Germany are taught in German so good language skills are a must.
My second question would be: Where would you like to work after you´ve graduated? It would make sense to complete your degree in the country where you intend to work later on as the registration process for physiotherapists is a pain if you want to work overseas....

In general, I would say that programmes in english speaking countries (e.g. Australia, USA, UK, NZ etc) exceed the standards in Germany, simply because these are academic degrees. Germany is slowly getting on track with regards to introducing entry-level Bachelor degrees but it´s a struggle and will definately take years to be fully established.

If you don´t intend to settle in Germany and pursue an international career, I would honestly study in Australia, the UK or even the Netherlands (there are a few programmes which are taught in English e.g. in Amsterdam).

Hi,
Am looking for an international career because i want very much see the world and gain experience in the field on the way My interest is in either of these countries: Germany, USA or Australia. But USA is VERY expensive in terms finishing the DPT, Germany not so much expensive and am going to take a M.Sc in Prevention and Rehabilitation in Leipzig Uni ( http://www.zv.uni-leipzig.de/en/study/study-opportunities/study-programmes/studiendetail.html?ifab_id=238 ) any how but am thinking maybe after or before the PT degree, and Australia i know nothing about except that is the programs they offer are very very good.

And maybe i will think about New Zealand if i got any recommendations.

Thank you