How low do you go

[ninemins]

I am interested to know what feedback I can receive on the topic of suat depth. Running coaches seem to think just to parallel but personal trainers and power lifters seem to favour a much deeper squat.

The running coach said "as any physio or orthopedic surgeon" will tell you the deeper squat (thigh below parallel) places enormous strain on the joint.

My 2 hesitations in accepting this as gospel is are that until the advent of chairs that was how everyone sat to manipulate tools tend crops etc and I have never met any group who all agree on anything!

Chris

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[ninemins]

v=_0fqEZAiKWc this is a link to youTube video showing basic squat as trainer lifters suggest
v=WfmuCo4paZI this is a complex with low squats
v=dbxxs1PErLQ&NR less deep
v=qRnGI3c5Jjs this is the less deep variation

[ninemins]

This is a link to the blogwhere I will keep a summary of the feedback.

http://www.physiobob.com/forum/blogs...189-squat.html

Cheers Chris

[gcoe]

Hi ninemins

I think there is some epidemiological evidence that squatting is a risk factor of meniscal tear. For example have a look at this study:

Sports injury, occupational physical activity, joint laxity, and meniscal damage. ? Journal of Rheumatology

Biomechanically the greater the degree of flexion (bend at the knee) during the squat the more shearing forces are applied to the menisci and adding extra load to the knee as in weights is lilkely to increase the shearing forces.

Anecdotally people with knee injuries in the clinic often report the causative active was performing deep squats in the gym.

“My 2 hesitations in accepting this as gospel is are that until the advent of chairs that was how everyone sat to manipulate tools tend crops etc “

I think it is a great point to make. Many societies today, particularly in Asia and the pacific continue to squat on the floor for very extended periods of time and lift and work from low heights. I don’t know anything about the cross cultural epidemiology of meniscus tears but it would be a really interesting thing to know if people whose lifestyle involves the deep squat really do experience more knee problems.

One possible mediating factor is that the joint may be modelled in the person’s development. Someone who grows up in a culture that spends much time in deep squatting positions may have develop more resilient knees where as us westerners who rarely squat in everyday life may be less resilient to cartilage damaging forces. Our knees may just not be modelled well for excessively deep squats.

This is just a scatter-brained theory of mine but there is considerable documentation on how joints and bones are modelled by habitual activity, particularly during development.

[ninemins]

I think there is a lot be to said for don't suddenly dramatically change your behavior.

So in running there is a 10% ie rule don't increase mileage by more than 10% per week.

As the body adapts then mileage can be increased more safely than just running til you fall apart and injury results.

So the deep squat camp will say we have always done it like this.

Shallow half squat camp say its safer but it is the contradiction and justification that is what I was curious about.

Thanks for the great reply. Chris

[mfsa7]

Might be useful to have a look through these.


1. Caterisano A, Moss R, Pellinger T, Woodruff K, Lewis V, Booth W,
Khadra T. The effect of back
squat depth on the EMG activity of 4 superficial hip and thigh
muscles. Journal of Strength and
Conditioning Research. 16(3); Pp 428-432. 2002
2. Chandler T, Wilson G, Stone M. The effect of the squat exercise on
knee stability. Med Sci
Sports Exerc. 21(3). Pp 299-303. 1989.
3. Johannsen H, Lind T, Jakobsen B, Kroner K. Exercise-induced knee
joint laxity in distance
runners. British Journal of Sports Medicine. 23(3); Pp 165-168. 1989
4. Meyers E. Effect of selected exercise variables on ligament
stability and flexibility of the knee.
Research Q. 42(4); Pp 411-422. 1971
5. Panariello R, Backus S, Parker J. The effect of the squat exercise
on anterior-posterior knee
translation in professional football players. American Journal of
Sports Medicine. 22(6); Pp 768-
773. 1994
6. Rippetoe M. Strong Enough: Thoughts from thirty years of barbell
training. Pp. 66-69. The
Aasgarard Company, Wichita Falls TX. 2007
7. Robertson D, Wilson J, St Pierre T. Lower extremity muscle
functions during full squats.
Journal of Applied Biomechanics. 24(4); Pp 333-339. 2008
8. Starr B. The Strongest Shall Survive: Strength training for
football. Pp 39-40. Fredericksburg, Va.
1976, 2003.
9. Steiner M, Grana W, Chilag K, Schelberg-Karnes E. The effect of
exercise on anterior-posterior
knee laxity. American Journal of Sports Medicine. 14(1); Pp 24-29. 1986

[takajokomo]

My observation has been that many fitness and personal trainers believe more in going to the extremes i.e. 'lift all the way', 'squat all the way down' or 'lift the heaviest and as maby reps as u can'.

On the other hand, as a physiotherapist, and considering the bio-mechanics of the knee joint, deep squats strain the knee remarkably, as more reaction forces are directed into the patellofemoral joint as you go lower with the squat. Even higher strain will be directed into the knee joint as add/carry weights. As such I would recommend only up to 90 degrees knee flexion.

[gcoe]

Hi MFSA7

thanks for the suggested reading. It is great to see someone putting up some evidence on this site.

I look forward to having a read of some of these.

Geoff