Probably Shoulder Dislocation/Subluxation

[darkwolfa]

Hello to All!
I want to give some background - I have "rounded shoulders" and "Winging shoulder blades" because weaker rhomboids and traps muscles!
When I try to flex my right pec seems like right shoulder blade is elevate upward and raise right traps muscle - I feel it more in right traps and little in right pec!
This is only information background!

My real problem is on the picture!
My doctor told me this is anomaly but I have problems to contract and feel my side and rear right shoulder muscles!

Result: My side and rear right delts are weaker than left!I Can't feel them!

As you can clearly see I have difference in shoulder shape!I'm bodybuilder!
Please If someone can tell me what happen with my right shoulder?
May be I have Subluxation?
I'm really very depressed!
ThANK YOU!

NOTE:
THE PICTURE IS ROTATED and MY LEFT SHOULDER ON THE PICTURE IS ACTUALLY MY RIGHT!
My RIGHT SHOULDER ON THE PICTURE IS WITHOUT RED AND WHITE MARKER ON MY FOREARM!

Second picture: Close look my right shoulder!


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[Canuck Physio]

Hello to All!
I want to give some background - I have "rounded shoulders" and "Winging shoulder blades" because weaker rhomboids and traps muscles!
Did the Dr. make this diagnosis, or a physio? It is difficult to tell from the photos. To observe rounded shoulders ideally a side shot is necessary with the body relaxed.
When I try to flex my right pec seems like right shoulder blade is elevate upward and raise right traps muscle - I feel it more in right traps and little in right pec!
Do you mean flex your Right pec only? Subsequently this causes your Right shoulder blade to elevate upward and raise the Right traps?
This is only information background!

My real problem is on the picture!
My doctor told me this is anomaly but I have problems to contract and feel my side and rear right shoulder muscles!
Ok, so the problem is in the Right arms shoulder muscles?
Result: My side and rear right delts are weaker than left!I Can't feel them!
Can you tell me a little bit about what caused this difference, was there a previous injury? Or what kind of lifts have you been performing?

As you can clearly see I have difference in shoulder shape!I'm bodybuilder!
Please If someone can tell me what happen with my right shoulder?
May be I have Subluxation?
I'm really very depressed!

Don't worry with a little extra information and some idea of what the exact problem is it can likely be solved. Is there any pain, or is it just aesthetics that are causing the problem?
ThANK YOU!

Hello fellow weight lifter, as above..

[darkwolfa]

Did the Dr. make this diagnosis, or a physio? It is difficult to tell from the photos. To observe rounded shoulders ideally a side shot is necessary with the body relaxed. - physio!But He is one of the best in my country!He has title doctor and associate professor as well!
I already know I have rounded shoulders and this is 100 % true!I can make for you side relax photos if you want?


Do you mean flex your Right pec only? Subsequently this causes your Right shoulder blade to elevate upward and raise the Right traps?
Yes.That's right when I concentrate to hold shoulder blade - stable on one place (because I want to flex the pec only)!For left side is OK - I feel same movement only in the left pec!

Ok, so the problem is in the Right arms shoulder muscles?
Yes only my Right Side is the problem!Someting in right shoulder!

Can you tell me a little bit about what caused this difference, was there a previous injury? Or what kind of lifts have you been performing?
Injury no!But I did bench press wrong style long time!In addition one time I remember I did Bench press on Incline Smith Machine and Smich Machine forced my elbows to flare(d) out behind my body!It caused pain in my right shoulder (about 4-5 times)!When I fixed the problem I was pain free!This was before 8-9 months!

NO PAIN AT ALL!MY RIGHT SHOULDER "CLICK" sometimes!It clicks like a crazy when I perform Propped External Rotator (see the picture for the exercise) and I hear click like my shoulder bones will crash!

To be honest I think I don't have problems with Front Delts!They works proper and very well!But when question comes to right side and rear delts - I just can't feel them when I try to isolate them with movement (like Side Lateral Raises)!

I think there is link between my right shoulder strange shape and problem with muscles!
I will post more pictures after about 20-30 minutes and hope they will give you better idea!
Thank you for the attention and for the help!

[darkwolfa]

The Pictures - I did my best!
Once again - Good (Left) Side is with Red/White Marker on the ForeArm!


By the way I'm total out of shape and everting because My Problems Killed ME!

[Canuck Physio]

Hello again,

There does appear to be rounding of the shoulders. How often do you complement chest workouts with back workouts?

Nonetheless, because you don't experience any pain or biomechanical problems, I feel this is just a matter of building muscle bulk in the appropriate muscles.

This means muscular balance work will obviously be important.

In regards to your chest workouts that you believe caused the problems, can you describe your form and workouts? Just describe how you perform benching movements, hand position, foot position, shoulder blade position etc, Range of motion, and speed of movement.

Are there any exercises or treatment that you have been given at this moment?

Can you describe your current weekly workout plan?

I wouldn't worry too much, I am a weight lifter as well and have had my fair share of problems. However, I have learned over the years how to overcome them.

NO PAIN AT ALL!MY RIGHT SHOULDER "CLICK" sometimes!It clicks like a crazy when I perform Propped External Rotator (see the picture for the exercise) and I hear click like my shoulder bones will crash!
This is the key issue that we should look to resolve at this moment. I know and have experienced that clicking myself and it can be one of several things. It can be that your humerus is grazing on the labrum of the glenoid fossa (basically the head of the arm bone impacting on the shoulder socket), or it can also be a tendon snapping in the small area under the acromioclavicular joint. You will need to LIST all movements that cause this sound for me.
Regards

[darkwolfa]

[QUOTE=Canuck Physio;19582]Hello again,

There does appear to be rounding of the shoulders. How often do you complement chest workouts with back workouts?
My Chest always was my bad bodypart!But I remember before the bodybuilding I did push-ups (floor) and they pumped crazy my chest!I did Bench Press with bad form and you know most gym rats will tell you for the Chest - Do more Chest Work,More Sets,More Reps,Pre-Ex! I learned too later my lesson for the back!
For the Back as well is important to pull the shoulder first (shoulder blades) not only to pull with the elbow!
To be Honest I did many mistakes in the past!

Nonetheless, because you don't experience any pain or biomechanical problems, I feel this is just a matter of building muscle bulk in the appropriate muscles.
This means muscular balance work will obviously be important.
Yes it can be!May be weaker right side muscles and they can't control and move shoulder blade as it suppose!I agree I have imbalance in my muscles!
But It can be the result from weak right side and rear delts - I think they are result from my right shoulder strange shape and problem!

In regards to your chest workouts that you believe caused the problems, can you describe your form and workouts? Just describe how you perform benching movements, hand position, foot position, shoulder blade position etc, Range of motion, and speed of movement.
I now do bench press very often!I suppose my shoulder blades are winged and with rounded shoulders - It is bad idea to bench press!I can't feel my chest at all!Absolutely no feeling in them - all chest exercises!
The Form: Chest Up,Elbows Out,Shoulder Blades together,Arc in Lower Back!But I can't feel my chest on flat bench!I feel stretching on Incline Bench Press, but I loose the feeling on way up (when pushing)!
I think wide shoulder blades and weak muscles (rhombois and traps) responce for this problem!
I never lock-out at the top by the way (this will activate the triceps and will pull the shoulders too forward)!
Shoulder Wide to Wide GriP!

Are there any exercises or treatment that you have been given at this moment?
Yes primary Rows!THe Doctor suggest me to train swimming but Now i don't have time for second sport!The swimming is great sport by the way!

Can you describe your current weekly workout plan?
I don't have workout plan!I have enough experience and knowledge but till I can't feel my all body parts - it will be impossible to do normal workout plan!Nutrition and Recovery as well are very dynamical for me!
For example If I train the chest but I fail to hit them (because my problems) It will crash my workout plan!
Now my basic plan is to train 2-3 times weekly the back and 1-2 legs!
ABS,ForeArms -little muscle groups!
I wouldn't worry too much, I am a weight lifter as well and have had my fair share of problems. However, I have learned over the years how to overcome them.
I'm very happy because you are iron brother too and I'm sure you understand better bodybuilding type problems!

[This is the key issue that we should look to resolve at this moment. I know and have experienced that clicking myself and it can be one of several things. It can be that your humerus is grazing on the labrum of the glenoid fossa (basically the head of the arm bone impacting on the shoulder socket), or it can also be a tendon snapping in the small area under the acromioclavicular joint. You will need to LIST all movements that cause this sound for me.
I HAVE QUESTION!I SAW SOME COMPETITOR AND THEY HAVE TOO DIFFERENCE IN SHOULDER SHAPE WHEN THEY PERFORM "BACK DOUBLE BICEPS POSE"!IS THIS NORMAL?I'm very depresed because I cleary see the difference in my shoulders!

It can be that your humerus is grazing on the labrum of the glenoid fossa (basically the head of the arm bone impacting on the shoulder socket), or it can also be a tendon snapping in the small area under the acromioclavicular joint. - HORRIBLE!I don;t fully understand this things but they are horrible!What is the treatment - SURGERY?


Movements: Barbell Bench Press (simulation);Flyes (Simulation) - both when the chEst are Up and the Elbows past the line behind the body!
Some Rotator Cuff exercises too!
Sometimes It just click when I move my arm - like when I wash my face!


I remember before when I performed Barbell Biceps Curl (Strading) my right shoulder pop up high but now It is oK!I had the same problem with side lateral raises (for side delts) - sometimes my right shoulder ended up higher than left shoulder!

By the way How i can be good bodybuilder IF i can't feel my right side and rear delts!You know If i continue to work the shoulder - left shoulder will grow,but right..... The situation with the sore is the same - very sore left side delt for example, but right side delt is like no touched!

Thank you for your help once again!
I know it is not very typical but If you have Skype or ICQ, you can send me them as Private Message and I can give you information about my problem interactive!

[Canuck Physio]

[QUOTE=darkwolfa;19584]

My Chest always was my bad bodypart!But I remember before the bodybuilding I did push-ups (floor) and they pumped crazy my chest!I did Bench Press with bad form and you know most gym rats will tell you for the Chest - Do more Chest Work,More Sets,More Reps,Pre-Ex! I learned too later my lesson for the back!
For the Back as well is important to pull the shoulder first (shoulder blades) not only to pull with the elbow!

Indeed...

Yes it can be!May be weaker right side muscles and they can't control and move shoulder blade as it suppose!I agree I have imbalance in my muscles!
But It can be the result from weak right side and rear delts - I think they are result from my right shoulder strange shape and problem!
Does this cause trouble lifting?

I now do bench press very often!I suppose my shoulder blades are winged and with rounded shoulders - It is bad idea to bench press!I can't feel my chest at all!Absolutely no feeling in them - all chest exercises!
I would like to suggest reducing the frequency of your chest workouts. Current research suggests that Muscles (taxed from working out) can take up to 7 full days to fully recover (as indicated by blood serum profiles of key cellular metabolites). This one step will not only reduce the imbalance that you are getting it will lead to MAXimum muscle growth and hypertrophy. Research is very vague in regards to building muscle, but I guarantee you what you read in the Magazines is WRONG.
The Form: Chest Up,Elbows Out,Shoulder Blades together,Arc in Lower Back!But I can't feel my chest on flat bench!I feel stretching on Incline Bench Press, but I loose the feeling on way up (when pushing)!
I think wide shoulder blades and weak muscles (rhombois and traps) responce for this problem!
I never lock-out at the top by the way (this will activate the triceps and will pull the shoulders too forward)!
Shoulder Wide to Wide GriP!
I want to suggest something here. Firstly start with no weight on the bar, and grip it at a comfortable width. RETRACT as in pull your shoulder blades (scapulae) together - the opposite of rounding your shoulders forward. Your shoulder blades need to be grounded into the bench before any pressing movement so that you can transfer maximum force to the bar. Then with the bar with no weight on it, try varying your grip and varying the position you bring the bar down with. Do this slowly and find a position that causes no sound to occur. If you can not bring the bar down all the way to the chest, then take this as a sign of low flexibility and just work from there. Additionally, do not use a heavy weight at the moment we need to retrain the proper muscles to recruit during this pressing movement.

Yes primary Rows!THe Doctor suggest me to train swimming but Now i don't have time for second sport!The swimming is great sport by the way!
I don't think this will alleviate your problem, I am a muscle balance and function practitioner and my problems never really went away until I used the program on myself.

I don't have workout plan!I have enough experience and knowledge but till I can't feel my all body parts - it will be impossible to do normal workout plan!Nutrition and Recovery as well are very dynamical for me!
For example If I train the chest but I fail to hit them (because my problems) It will crash my workout plan!
Now my basic plan is to train 2-3 times weekly the back and 1-2 legs!
ABS,ForeArms -little muscle groups!
I feel you are training chest too many times per week. Remember any time you perform Triceps on one day you are already working them out again on Shoulder day and Chest day. Your muscles need time to recuperate and will only get this with a well structured workout plan. If you fail to plan, then plan to fail.

I'm very happy because you are iron brother too and I'm sure you understand better bodybuilding type problems!
I'm sorry to say that there is so much non-sense in the magazines and on the internet the Truth is hard to come by. Although muscle balance is somewhat an art form, there is only the Scientific approach that I am presenting to you

I HAVE QUESTION!I SAW SOME COMPETITOR AND THEY HAVE TOO DIFFERENCE IN SHOULDER SHAPE WHEN THEY PERFORM "BACK DOUBLE BICEPS POSE"!IS THIS NORMAL?I'm very depresed because I cleary see the difference in my shoulders!
I am unsure, it could simply be the camera angle, lighting, or different position of the arm.

HORRIBLE!I don;t fully understand this things but they are horrible!What is the treatment - SURGERY?[/B][/COLOR]
No not at all, all I am suggesting is that the biomechanics of the joint may not be proper.


Movements: Barbell Bench Press (simulation);Flyes (Simulation) - both when the chEst are Up and the Elbows past the line behind the body!
Some Rotator Cuff exercises too!
Sometimes It just click when I move my arm - like when I wash my face!
please try the technique with the bar only as described above

I remember before when I performed Barbell Biceps Curl (Strading) my right shoulder pop up high but now It is oK!I had the same problem with side lateral raises (for side delts) - sometimes my right shoulder ended up higher than left shoulder!
This exercise needs improvement.
By the way How i can be good bodybuilder IF i can't feel my right side and rear delts!You know If i continue to work the shoulder - left shoulder will grow,but right..... The situation with the sore is the same - very sore left side delt for example, but right side delt is like no touched!
You may be overtraining one side because it is overcompensating. Alot of your problems I can not tell without actually examining your training.

I know it is not very typical but If you have Skype or ICQ, you can send me them as Private Message and I can give you information about my problem interactive! - I do not have Skype or ICQ

As above regards.

[darkwolfa]

Feeling problem - YES! Movies restriction - NO!


I already frequency chest workouts!
From 1 year - 1 year and half I train with light weights and only be feeling!
I always use moderate to slow speed!Never fast out of control movements!
Anyway I will follow your advice for Bench Press strictly!

I don't think this will alleviate your problem, I am a muscle balance and function practitioner and my problems never really went away until I used the program on myself.
- What You will suggest me I really want to fix my shoulder problem and to put them back to their normal position?

I feel you are training chest too many times per week. Remember any time you perform Triceps on one day you are already working them out again on Shoulder day and Chest day. Your muscles need time to recuperate and will only get this with a well structured workout plan. If you fail to plan, then plan to fail.
-Yes I know!I don't train crazy like some people Chest Every day,or Back Every day!I really give 4-5 days rest to muscles!And I know for triceps like for the Biceps and The Back!
I will give you example for one good workout plan by my opinion:
1.Back and Biceps,ForeArms (sometimes)
2.Legs - Quads,Hamstings,Calves,ABS (I know it is crazy but when Legs are already tired I can better contract my ABS because Legs are out of the game)
3.Chest and Triceps
4.Shoulders - I know shoulders works with the chest and the triceps!But If you train only side and rear delts, and traps in their own day
(without Front Delts) It is Ok for me!ABS

I'm sorry to say that there is so much non-sense in the magazines and on the internet the Truth is hard to come by. Although muscle balance is somewhat an art form, there is only the Scientific approach that I am presenting to you
-Yes I know!Especially Flex MAGAZINE!Other example is MD - they put only some bullshits!

No not at all, all I am suggesting is that the biomechanics of the joint may not be proper.
-WHERE IS THE SOLUTION?WHAT I CAN DO FOR MYSELF?

I want to thank you very much for you help!
Can you give me advice - What is the best thing I can do now?
Again THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME AND HELP!

REGARDS and for me

[darkwolfa]

I'm finally 100 % sure what happen with me!
I have light form of shoulder subluxation!
I found one article from Bulgarian Doctor (On my Native Language)!

Subluxation can be pain free (as in my case) and some patients adapt to subluxation and can do all movements but they still have a problem!

I have "click" in some movements (I don't know all movement but..) and especially overhead like the Rotator Cuff Exercise (We all ready discuss[ed]) - and It really sounds like my shoulder will crash!I feel weakness when I perform The Rotator Cuff Exercise as well!

I can't feel my right side and rear delts (Muscles not response or very very hard response on Side Lateral Raises,and Rear Delt Raises) - I know from the article this can be from long-winded (PROLIX) nerves from outer side - right under upper part of the shouler! I know (from the article again) the nerves must recover.IS this TRUE?

My shoulders have different look in some poses and position (I think when they are relaxed they are the same) and I hear quiet or loud "click" when I change my arm position in problem poses!

For me it is enough to say I have shoulder subluxation!
THE QUESTION IS: CAN I RECOVER MY NATURAL SHOULDER POSITION IN ALL MOVEMENTS AND POSES IF I PERFORM ROTATOR CUFF EXERCISES AND BUILD STRONG ROTATOR CUFF MUSCLES?

[Canuck Physio]

A shoulder subluxation is a minor dislocation of any given joint. This can only be truely confirmed with a hands on assessment. Regardless, if the joint is damaged or lax there may be underlying structures that are damaged, but because you did not state any trauma I doubt that it is a True subluxation. Most people by the virtue of decreased activity probably have some degree of instability around the shoulder joint (or pseudo-subluxation) regardless.

I do not believe constant Rotator Cuff work will solve the problem. There are simply too many muscles surrounding the shoulder to place the emphasis on just these muscles. There are joints, ligaments, and muscles attached all over the humerus and scapula. Obviously without having seen your workout form, and assessed in your arm in person it would be difficult to tell which muscles are over-active and which are under-active. Which muscles are short, and which have lengthened.

I suggest you proceed with caution, begin by finding a range of motion with bench press that is comfortable for you. Additionally if you choose to continue with rotator cuff exercise, I suggest you get a qualified professional to guide you through them. Depending on the position of your arm you will target different muscles.

Regards

[darkwolfa]

oki Buddy!
ALL now is crystal clear!I will follow your advices in my future workouts!
Thank you for them!

Only one thing still quest me - What will happen with the Subluxation?
How Subluxation will be remove(d)?

[Canuck Physio]

If it were a True Subluxation your Doctor should have picked this up. I doubt it since you are able to move you arm in full swing. Subluxation just means minor dislocation.
Increasing muscle tone around the shoulder, muscle balance, all these factors will influence your natural arm position. Whatever you do your body adapts to.

Good luck

[darkwolfa]

I doubt I can find good doctor in my stupid country!They are just too lazy and when the problem is small They neglect it!Sad but true!

I was stupid I missed one thing when I described my problem!
When I perform side laterals (Elbows UP) I feel them more in my Front Delt (only on right side), Left Side is Fine (feeling in side delt)!I very well know how to isolate side delts but I feel it "In Front"!
I think this is result from shoulder dislocation.Can it be?
Any comment?


Thank you Canuck Physio!
You been very good with me and help me so much!
I don;t have words to Thank you!