German challenges: are English Physiotherapists really the best in Europe???

[Physioindeed]

I recently got asked how I managed to get HPC registration as I "only" trained in Germany. Supposedly that is a shorter and less valuable education over there.
It actually got my blood boiling!
German Physiotherapists are training for three years. After that the German Qualification is sufficient enough to be recognized in all european countries apart from Netherlands (where all Physios have to learn for four years) and apart from our lovely Great Britain.
Why? In general I would have thought that the quality of the german health system is excellent, (why is it that many people travel to germany for difficult operations, why can every patient in germany see a german doctor, a specialist, a physio in one week whilst to do so in England you will have to go through a three to six month waiting procedure?)
A nother point: the english education system is not really know to be one of the best or superior to any other European training and education. ( I actually read this week in an english newspaper that England supposedly has the worst education system in Europe. So is physiotherapy the big exception then??)

I graduated best of my year in Germany (the last time I applied in Germany I got to pick from five jobs - however when I tried to get HPC registration it took me 18!! month! and armsful of forms to fill out plus quite a lot of money)

The German system is much less rigid than the English.
After you graduate you have gained a lot of practice already during the placements with in your training (in total the equivalent of one year) In their first job they are therefore trusted with their own case load straight away. In Germany there is no such thing as junior and senior etc...(and we still survive and provide what I call excellent physiotherapy service).
Ideally the newcomers will have supervision but in the end of the day it always will come down to personal motivation of the physiotherapist and talent if somebody delivers good treatments.
Personally I think the rotational junior positions in hospitals are causing more hassel at the moment then it is worth. Seeing that because of them many newcomers can't gain any experience at all! Why not react, change the education, make it more praxis orientated so that you don't need the obligational two years rotations?
I have been in English hospitals to see how things are done here. unbelievable!! I was very impressed though with the amount of paperwork english physiotherapists achieved to fill out!

Seeing the results of German and English Physiotherapy treatment I am not entirely sure all this difficulties put in the way of newstarters are actually helping the quality of service....
what do you think?
kind regards
Annette

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[Alex.]

I recently got asked how I managed to get HPC registration as I "only" trained in Germany. Supposedly that is a shorter and less valuable education over there.
It actually got my blood boiling!
German Physiotherapists are training for three years. After that the German Qualification is sufficient enough to be recognized in all european countries apart from Netherlands (where all Physios have to learn for four years) and apart from our lovely Great Britain.
Why? In general I would have thought that the quality of the german health system is excellent, (why is it that many people travel to germany for difficult operations, why can every patient in germany see a german doctor, a specialist, a physio in one week whilst to do so in England you will have to go through a three to six month waiting procedure?)
A nother point: the english education system is not really know to be one of the best or superior to any other European training and education. ( I actually read this week in an english newspaper that England supposedly has the worst education system in Europe. So is physiotherapy the big exception then??)

I graduated best of my year in Germany (the last time I applied in Germany I got to pick from five jobs - however when I tried to get HPC registration it took me 18!! month! and armsful of forms to fill out plus quite a lot of money)

The German system is much less rigid than the English.
After you graduate you have gained a lot of practice already during the placements with in your training (in total the equivalent of one year) In their first job they are therefore trusted with their own case load straight away. In Germany there is no such thing as junior and senior etc...(and we still survive and provide what I call excellent physiotherapy service).
Ideally the newcomers will have supervision but in the end of the day it always will come down to personal motivation of the physiotherapist and talent if somebody delivers good treatments.
Personally I think the rotational junior positions in hospitals are causing more hassel at the moment then it is worth. Seeing that because of them many newcomers can't gain any experience at all! Why not react, change the education, make it more praxis orientated so that you don't need the obligational two years rotations?
I have been in English hospitals to see how things are done here. unbelievable!! I was very impressed though with the amount of paperwork english physiotherapists achieved to fill out!

Seeing the results of German and English Physiotherapy treatment I am not entirely sure all this difficulties put in the way of newstarters are actually helping the quality of service....
what do you think?
kind regards
Annette

Hi Annette!
What can I say.....I had this type of conversation just a few hours ago- and not for the first time though!But fortunately it doesn't bother me that much anymore I've trained in Germany and have been working in the UK for the last 4 years and I have to say I really love it! But it took a long while to 'forget' about the long registration procedure. I've done a required adaptation time and for me personal it was a good time to get back to basics and to gain some teaching. You see, a lot of people have no idea about training in other countries and lots of my friends got huge eyes when I told them about the German training. I actually never had anybody telling me that my training is 'not good enough'. It was more about to intensify topics which weren't that big in my training. I can totally understand your anger about certain behaviour from people and their feeling of 'superior' but just face it: None of them would get their bums into gear to try to work in Germany. I'm now considering to get my NZ registration.....we will see how that is going to be
So if you or anybody else knows a well trained German Physio who has got UK registration AND NZ registration please don't hesitate to tell me all about it
Keep smiling!!
Alex.

[Physioindeed]

hi Alex,
thanks for your encouragement! You really seem to have settled in, that is great! I think I just needed to let of some steam. Hope you find some answers here about working in NZ.
all the best
Annette

[physiobob]

Afterall everyone knows that Aussie Physio's are the best in Europe .... just for fun!

[emad]

Hello All ;

I notcied that the main point is the credits of the course . In most Europe non-English countries the course is 3.5 years ,but it so intensified .The course is between 200-250 credits in a european marker called ESCT credits i think .As well , the point of the how long the year of the study in weeks is crucial and hours .

As for UK physio-registration they make it slight tough with no aim e.g. the adaptation periods .However ,in what way they will go the whole issue is easy in relation to Fedral countries like USA ,Canada and Australia . Where it is so boring to pass a written exam in physiology and anatomy questions while you are really senior physiotherapist .

Cheers
Emad

[Alex.]

Afterall everyone knows that Aussie Physio's are the best in Europe .... just for fun!

....Aha! Why is that?

[angela1]

If you were so pissed off with the whole thing then you shouldn't have bothered. Do you know that 70% of graduates in England didn't get jobs last year - a good reason to make it hard for foreigners wouldn't you say!!

And the two years rotation in public hospitals is not compulsary, it is a recomendation.

I payed a lot of money to work as a physio in Australia (as you will have guessed I come from England). If I wanted to go to NZ it could have been there within 3 months, no exam, no hassel. To be honest I would rather prove my worth and show the Aussies that we are all equal by passing there clinical and 2 written exams.

[oscar]

If you were so pissed off with the whole thing then you shouldn't have bothered. Do you know that 70% of graduates in England didn't get jobs last year - a good reason to make it hard for foreigners wouldn't you say!!

And the two years rotation in public hospitals is not compulsary, it is a recomendation.

I payed a lot of money to work as a physio in Australia (as you will have guessed I come from England). If I wanted to go to NZ it could have been there within 3 months, no exam, no hassel. To be honest I would rather prove my worth and show the Aussies that we are all equal by passing there clinical and 2 written exams.

Hey don't forget the new grads in Scotland and Wales too that can't get jobs !! I think on the whole for the UK it's now around 70-80% unemployment for new graduates......!

[Bananabelly]

I am an Aussie physio working in England and I would have to say, having regularly supervised students here, that the courses ain't that great generally, and though I don't know much about European courses I doubt they are less of a qualification in any way, it's just bureacracy. Though the Aussie course is well respected and 4 years long I still had to do mountains of paperwork to get registered (though no adaption period).
And I know there are exams, etc to get into Oz as a physio, but I think it is slightly more reasonable considering the course is longer than most countries, and in oz (when I was there at least) physiotherapy is almost as hard to get into as medicine, so the calibre of students is very high (usually). Half of the students I get here would never survive an Aussie course.
Hope that isn't too controversial, just treat it as bureacracy and let it swoosh over your head - if you plan to work in the NHS for long you will need to learn that!

[Physioindeed]

Quote from Angela "If you were so pissed off with the whole thing then you shouldn't have bothered. Do you know that 70% of graduates in England didn't get jobs last year - a good reason to make it hard for foreigners wouldn't you say!! And the two years rotation in public hospitals is not compulsary, it is a recomendation. "

You are right telling me of as my original message was written in a short state of bitterness. Apiologies.
I guess as well you are right that the Apologies in the own country should be served first.
But if 70% percent of the first years didn't get any jobs it shows to me that the system is not working very well.
The employers are just not trusting anybody who hasn't gone through the two years rotational system because the HPC is recommending it. But what they are recommending is unrealistic and unfeasible as there are just not enough junior spaces....
It just seems to me like a donkey who tries to bite their own tail. no?
thanks for charing your views,
kind regards
Annette

[Physioindeed]

Hello All ;

In most Europe non-English countries the course is 3.5 years ,but it so intensified .The course is between 200-250 credits in a european marker called ESCT credits i think .As well , the point of the how long the year of the study in weeks is crucial and hours .
...
Cheers
Emad

To provide a few facts: Hi Emad

thanks for your post
I didn't find anything about the European markers you mentioned on the web but I just looked the hours I did within my education in Germany up
We did 1808 practical hours in placements and
3186 hrs theory and treatment lessons at uni.
How does that compare with english physios?
The thing is that english students I talked to didn't rate their education very high themselves. They said that their knowledge (e.g anatomy) wasn't tested regular apart from the final exams. and the students themselves who I spoke to (only three -admittedly) didn't feel confident to work by themselves. As well they didn't do a placement in each main subject during their training which explains why the postgraduate rotation is so important . We did in Musculoskeletal 308hrs Intesive Care Unit /respiratory 308hrs, Neurology 308 hrs, Orthopedics 308hrs, Pediatrics192hrs, Psychiatry 192hrs and Gynecology 192hrs. (most of them in hospitals- five different hospitals in four different citys, one rehabilitation centre, and one private surgery).

I think what bugs me most is that 70% of graduates who don't find a job and who will loose complete confidence in their ability and in the HPC/ NHS/ State. And everybody seems to accept it as god given without the prospect of change (or am I not on the newest stand)

Physiotherapist are there to help patients and everybody is rightly concerned about the quality of service they need to provide, but the organizations who are there to help the physiotherapists (like finding employment after graduation) seem to fail them.
but possibly that is a different discussion and has only inderect effect on the registration for foreigners. I just think that because I am a foreigner I look at the British situation with an outsiders view.... and thanks for reading my monolog to this point

Annette

[emad]

Hello Annette :

I am NOt British , i am there out away of Europe , just i am interested in what is going on through registration all over the Globe .

The real problem is when they are going to assess/evaluate a physiotherapist Education ,on what base are they asess . Let be more clear if a german physiotherapist ( graduated in 1999) applied for registration in Uk in the year 2008 ! Of course , comparing a course from 1999 to 2008 is not fair at all . However , i think the issue of experience is very crucial , because with experience the communication skills are improving which i believe main thin the physiotherapist,s competence .

As for UK , i think the government needs to review the law of physiotherapist grading ,because there are many unemployed graduates and many vacant jobs need seniors only as i read in 1 news agency .

I have read the UK curriculum ,the most interesting is the Reflective physiotherapist producing through that curriculum , and producing a physiotherapist self-dependant through CPD ( Learing ) process and Evidence-Based Practicse , thus what is written through the Officil curriculum . I think the point of the Official Curriculum content and the quality of real physiotherapist teaching is another issue .

I will search for credits links and give you them .

Best Wishes
Emad

[emad]

Annette :
a link for credits in general , you can search this website for physiotherapy you will find much .
http://ec.europa.eu/education/progra...ndex_en.html#1

Cheers
Emad

[physiobob]

It is not just the NHS at fault here. It is the private insurers. It is the job of the CSP to prevent BUPA from putting the 5 yrs mandate on post graduate education. Otherwise no one under 5 years post grad will leave the NHS and therefore there will be no positions that open up. BUPA is the main cause, not the NHS!

[Physioindeed]

It is not just the NHS at fault here. It is the private insurers. It is the job of the CSP to prevent BUPA from putting the 5 yrs mandate on post graduate education. Otherwise no one under 5 years post grad will leave the NHS and therefore there will be no positions that open up. BUPA is the main cause, not the NHS!

thanks for correcting me- makes complete sense.
Is the CSP actually open for everybody who is HPC registered? Including freshly graduated Physios? When I spoke to them earlier in the day I had the feeling they didn't want to insure any newly graduates.
I just thought that because the lady of the CSP on the phone this morning seemed to want to make sure I hadn't graduated recently. Only after I denied she agreed to send me the application pack.
I guess that if they do represent freshly graduates, and physios with less then 5 years experience they should be obliged to put pressure onto e.g. BUPA and other private providers, be their lobby and push the issue in front of the government. But possible they don't take fresh graduates because it is more hasselsome?
Sorry if I sound naive (I know it is not that easy and black and white as I make it sound and I am making lots of wrong statements and assumptions) but I am just trying to get some answers to stuff which has been bothering me.
regards
Annette

[oscar]

The CSP definitely accepts students- I am one! They have a student membership option and a qualified phyisio membership. Once we graduate we automatically become full CSP members.

[henner]

Hi Annette,

This is Henner. I wondered whether you'd like to write about your experiences over there for the (German) ZVK newsletter, either Northern region or National edition.

OK, hang in there and good luck !