Wasting triceps & pectoral, loss of strength

[wakaday]

Hello, I'm new to this forum and really need some guidance with an injury I have. My sports are bodybuilding & swimming, I've been training for about 25 years. This is a new injury for me and I just don't know what to do?

It all started back in November, I woke up after sleeping awkwardly on my side and found that it was very difficult to extend my left arm. I had a dull throbbing pain between my deltoid and neck. The pain was quite bad and the maximum dose of ibuprofen & paracetamol with anti-inflammatories was required to manage it. After a week the pain subsided but I have been left with weakness in my left side.

My left triceps and left pectoral muscle are about 50% of the strength of the right hand side. My bench press has been reduced from a regular 160Kg to around 100Kg. Things have improved but only very slightly. My biggest concern is muscle atrophy. My left triceps and left pectoral muscle are visibly smaller, softer and wasting. I visited a chiropractor several times who suggested that I have a prolapsed disc in my neck.

I’ve started using a Tens EMS , electro stimulator unit on the triceps and pectoral to combat the wastage , but I don’t think it’s made a lot of difference. A guy in my gym had a similar experience after suffering whiplash in a car crash and lost control of his pectoral , but he regained control in about 3 months. I’m not in any pain , my problem is muscle wastage and loss of strength.

Please can anyone advise me on what I can do to improve this injury?

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[alophysio]

hi ian,

First, let me give you hope. Most physios are fine and can deal with this type of problem. What you have had trouble with is that perhaps the physios haven't communicated what their plans are in the different scenarios...and i must admit that i have done that on occasion as well. What i do try to convey is that whatever comes out, it is likely to be relatively common and we can deal with it when we know.

My advice to everyone, including people who come to see me, is that you should ask questions you have. Good physios will take the time to answer them properly.

As for a physio, you need to have confidence in them. If they don't "click" with you, change. You would be surprised how much it helps you get better. I have had staff who were relatively inexperienced and fairly basic in their skills but were excellent communicators and generated a strong loyal client base. I have had to take over their patients when they were on holidays and let me tell you, it was very hard to get them to trust me. They just wanted their usual physio back. Even now i have trouble getting my patients to see other physios in the practice... some people will wait a week and a half to see me rather than see someone today!

Anyway, i am sure you will be fine.

let us know how you get on.

Cheers!

[idcaton]

Thanks for that Antony,

Lol. Aus' physio's are legandry in these parts, i just can't find one. It's rumoured one has been sighted in Sheffield, a couple of hours away.

My Neurologist said he would copy my physio into correspondance and my physio asked me to email her with diagnosis.

I Have done so, and asked for her thoughts.

-----------------------

You say:

"First, let me give you hope. Most physios are fine and can deal with this type of problem."

and

"Anyway, i am sure you will be fine."

I like this rather a lot. At present i am comforting myself that it is not life threatening, and not getting much professional encouragement otherwise.

If you could point me to some links similarly encouraging it would help my psyche loads, presently i can't work or play and the way it is being painted to me there is a significant chance of it staying that way for at least 2 years.

Sort of life changing really.

I really really appreciate your input.

Thanks again

Ian

[alophysio]

hi ian,

You are right - it is life changing. I am also glad you have taken the encouragement the way i intended it to be...i am not making light of the situation but it isn't life threatening, just life changing as you say.

It is hard to say what is going on from here. You may have a "pinched nerve" in the neck which needs to be shaved back. It might be chemical in nature (and not seen on any scans BTW). It might be permanent. No one is sure yet.

But to give you hope...

...I had a girl who had terrible pain for at least6-9 months with no end in sight. She was a railway conductor and had to have her hand above her head to work the controls. Anyway, something happened to her and she couldn't lift her arm above 45 degrees to the vertical...that is, she could only move her hand about a foot and a half away from the side of her body. With some treatment, we were able to get her back to full movement of the arm in about 12 sessions (3 months). Lots of nerve "flossing" and things like that.

Some authors you may want to keep an eye out for are David Butler, Lorimer Mosely and Michael Shacklock. All 3 are pain specialists/researchers in physio type stuff. They have books etc you can buy but they tend to be textbooks...

THere is a book by butler and mosely called "Explain Pain" which is pretty cool. Worth buying. Explain Pain: Amazon.co.uk: David S. Butler, G. Lorimer Moseley: Books

Michael's "Clinical Neurodynamics" is another one you can buy.

The NOI Group are pretty good to be associated with... NOI | Neuro Orthopaedic Institute and https://www.facebook.com/noigroup?ref=ts

All the resources above have a positive approach.

What are some of the things that you want to be able to do that you cannot currently do? And why can't you do them?

Thanks Ian

[idcaton]

Thanks once again for info..

What do i want to do? Lol

High standard rock climbing, this sort of thing.

UKC Photos - Emma Alsford on Right Wall, E5 6a, Dinas Cromlech.

Why not?

Pectoral not working properly and scapula trying to come over my shoulder to say "Hi" when i Raise arm straight out to front. (and winging big time)

Maybe other stuff i don't know about yet. It looks like a long and winding road at pres. Age complicates, I was really pushing it by normal standards for my age, 54 this year. So give it a couple of years, with luck, it is really going to be some achievement to get back to where i was.

Oh yeah, and work.


Thanks

Ian

[idcaton]

Yup that's right.

just been to hospital to see "Senior Physio", she plainly had never heard of it. She consults with chief who says stuff like "I can't see how there can be a problem with the Brachial Plexus without trauma such as a motorcycle accident".

So I guess he'd never heard of it either.

Meanwhile private physios have not responded to email post diagnosis from neurologist.

Love it.

Back out into the shark infested waters of private physio without a map.

'kin tops.

[alophysio]

hi Ian,

Don't despair! A few things first.

1. Did you present the neuroligist's diagnosis and the nerve conduction studies etc (BTW, how were they?)
2. Did you ask about the authors i posted above? Had they heard of David Butler or Lorimer mosely or Michael Shacklock?
3. Did they seem interested in your case, like you are a great opportunity to learn from?
4. Have you checked out the website NOI | Neuro Orthopaedic Institute If not, do so because contacting them might find you a physio who knows about what they teach (they would have a database)
5. Contact [email protected] to see if they know anyone in your area who has done their advanced course called "The Series". Otherwise, someone who has done the thorax 1 and 2 course should be ok.
6. don't give up hope!

I hope you can appreciate that i want to help you more but it is hard unless you fly me there or come down under for a holiday!

Let me know how you get on !

[idcaton]

Many many thanks for response.


1. Did you present the neuroligist's diagnosis and the nerve conduction studies etc (BTW, how were they?)

Presented diagnosis, but nerve conduction study not done yet. 5 weeks away. Neuroligist told me they would know what to do with diagnosis alone.

2. Did you ask about the authors i posted above? Had they heard of David Butler or Lorimer mosely or Michael Shacklock?

No, I will revisit this.

3. Did they seem interested in your case, like you are a great opportunity to learn from?

'ish. I'll see if they have done some research, I have another appointment next week.

4. Have you checked out the website NOI | Neuro Orthopaedic Institute If not, do so because contacting them might find you a physio who knows about what they teach (they would have a database)

I've checked this out and the guy I saw is one of their instructors!

5. Contact [email protected] to see if they know anyone in your area who has done their advanced course called "The Series". Otherwise, someone who has done the thorax 1 and 2 course should be ok.

Have emailed.

6. don't give up hope!

No way.

I hope you can appreciate that i want to help you more but it is hard unless you fly me there or come down under for a holiday!

Haven't been for a long time, I miss it. Fantastic memories of the reef, the clear air of Armadale, driving hundreds of miles south inside the range, eyes peeled for the glints of eyes by the side of the road, hand on the screen. Orange, Dubbo, peeping the horn to get the birds off the road. The snowies. Most of all, the people i met. fair dinkum, ...."Mmmm where's my bag?"

Thanks again, I'll let you know.

Ian

[idcaton]

Just a quick one.

I've been looking at these books on Amazon. They seem very pain focused. I don't have pain, just disfunction, are they still appropriate?

[Keal99]

Hey I'm in the same boat as most here.
Has anyone read about low level laser therapy aka cold laser therapy? It is used by some physios as an alternative to massage therapy.

It has been proven to enhance nerve regeneration and repair, I am currently trying to find someone in aus with experience in using it to help repair nerves.

[alophysio]

@idcaton, the books are pain focused but explain how the brain works and how nerves work.

@Keel99 - you mention that they have proven laser to enhance nerve regeneration and repair - do you have the references for that please? Thanks

[Keal99]

Hey here is the link on the only solid research I have found Laser Therapy Studies | Multi Radiance Medical there are plenty of sites claiming it works.Not exactly sure what to believe.What do you think?

[Keal99]

Hey here is the link on the only solid research I have found Laser Therapy Studies | Multi Radiance Medical there are plenty of sites claiming it works.Not exactly sure what to believe.What do you think?

[Keal99]

Hey here is the link on the only solid research I have found Laser Therapy Studies | Multi Radiance Medical there are plenty of sites claiming it works.Not exactly sure what to believe.What do you think?

[varget]

Well, all of this is sounds soooo familar, and as if I wrote most of them. First, I was glad to see I was not alone in this battle, and that (sorry) there were others. It's frustrating to most of us I'm sure, because it sounds like we are all strong, muscle building, workout type folk, who thrive on being in shape, and taking care of ourselves.
I'm a firefighter Capatain of rank, and 31 years on the line providing for others and fix it solutions. I am also a tactical paramedic/ sniper on a SWAT team, high angle rescue and confined space tech. So you can imagine the abuse I've dealt myself over the years "fixing" others problems and issues, yet frustrated that so far, they can't fix mine.
Mine started out the same, just woke up thinking I'd slept on this wrong, the usual pain under the scapula, unable to look right etc. 24 hours later, the spasms were so instense down my right arm clear to my hand, that they'd put me down! The contractions were instense and would last 2-3 minutes, and breathing through them was the only relief. Docs tried 3-4 different muscle relaxers, pain meds, for almost 3 weeks, before someone decided I best be on a steroid dose pack. This immediately in 12 hours calmed the spasms.
MRI showed narrowing around C5-6 area, and partial collapsed disc at C4.
Following this, the tricep, bicep, and pec muscles begin terrible atrophy, almost like cancer ate them. They diminished in size, strength, to the point I went from benching 255 regularly, and doing 40-50 pushups daily, to not being able to do even one unless I used mostly my left side. Curling strength is still there, along with pretty good military pressing ability, but no outward benching strength.
EMG showed significant diminished damage and validated the C4,5 damage. Overall, it's been almost 2 months now, and today, they informed me that if I don't have the surgery to fix the pressure on the nerve bundle, that I risk loosing the tricep and pec area muscles, since they aren't responding. How depressing, as I was hoping for an easier fix!
Can anyone enlighten me as to what to expect from a surgery of this magnitude, recovery time, ability to return to normal activity etc?

Thanks

[geordiejonna]

Hi All,

This is my first post, so hello to all. I've recently joined this forum having found this thread, and wish to

contribute.

I'll start by thanking each of the posters for sharing their experiences, as it's comforting to know that I'm not alone in suffering with these symptoms.

I'm 35, live near Newcastle in the north east of England and enjoy a fairly active lifestyle including regular gym visits for resistance training, some ballistic training (using kettlebells) and a lot of cycling. Around two weeks ago I noticed in the gym that my strength was significantly diminished in my right shoulder when performing a shoulder press. Initially I put this down to a slight strain as I felt no pain as such, but over the last week or so I've noticed a significant loss in strength in my right arm and chest. Whilst discussing this with my girlfriend this morning she observed that my upper body did not appear symetrical; the difference from one side to the other isn't huge, but is definately noticeable and it appears I've lost muscle mass. I tried a few exercises to see what was affected and my right pectoral muscle is significantly weaker than normal; my bench pressing capacity has dropped from around 90kg(200lbs) to around 60kgs, though this is somewhat uncomfortable as I find my left side is over compensating for weakness in the right. My right bicep appears to be slightly weaker but nowhere near the drop in strength observed in my chest (perhaps 85%). My shoulder seems fairly stable and I'm able to do a front/side raise using dumbells but I'm somewhat alarmed at the weakness in my tricep. I tried a few tricep extensions this morning using a dumbell, whilst lying on my back and found that I could barely lift 6/7kgs with my right arm compared with 25+ (without any bother) on my left.

I recall having a Flu jab/shot around four weeks ago (21st October), and wondered whether this could be linked with my problem, so called into my local hospital for advice. I saw a nurse/doctor this morning who advised that I'd need to consult my GP as there was nothing they could do in the way of emergency treatment, but they did comment.. "the flu shot could not be responsible for my condition".

Having returned home, I did a bit of googling, only to stumble upon this site/thread, and so now I'm wondering whether the flu jab was in fact the cause of the issue?

I've no choice but to wait until Monday now before I can contact my GP, but hopefully they can refer me in the near future to someone who can help...

Despite the lack of strength, my muscle 'mass' doesn't seem too bad, and in the case of my arms, I'd say the size/volume remains comparible between left and right. I'm thinking (as experienced by some of you) that the issue could stem from nerve damage as I feel as though I'm simply unable to activate/utilise my right pec/tricep, but unlike some of the members on this thread, I haven't suffered significant pain to date.

I'd realy appreciate any advice you could offer...

Can I expect further muscle atrophy? How long after noticing the loss in strength did your strength begin to return?

Is there anything I can do in the meantime to speed the recovery process, and should I continue with resistance training (in the hope of limiting the atrophy).

I guess advice will really depend on a future diagnosis, but nevertheless I'd still appreciate your thoughts.

I'm feeling pretty low right now, as I'm slowly coming to terms with the fact that my body has sustained damage that will take a long time to get over.

Thanks in advance,
Simon.

[alophysio]

Hi Simon

Thx for the info. Perhaps you should copy your post and start a new one and put a link to it here?

In any case, my quick thoughts are:

1. Not from flu jab. I don't have any evidence but they would have to stick it to u in a strange position to get both of those nerves.
2. Probably nerve. Muscle damage usually hurts. So does a fracture.
3. Get GP referral to see a physio and go from there. Either that or a neurologist.

Cheers

[geordiejonna]

Hi Simon

Thx for the info. Perhaps you should copy your post and start a new one and put a link to it here?

In any case, my quick thoughts are:

1. Not from flu jab. I don't have any evidence but they would have to stick it to u in a strange position to get both of those nerves.
2. Probably nerve. Muscle damage usually hurts. So does a fracture.
3. Get GP referral to see a physio and go from there. Either that or a neurologist.

Cheers

Thanks for the advice - will do as you suggest and start another thread.

[Tinytom]

Just read through this after finding it on google

This is the condition I have brought on by a sneeze a while back in March.

Ive had sports massages, hot and cold therapy, trigger pointing and just recently accupuncture. All have helped slightly but by right side pec and tricep are much weaker. I normally press 70kg DBS for 10 and now having trouble with 32s which is annoying to say the least especially as I'm a competitive bber and when you see your body wasting away it's depressing.

I think the acupuncture I've had recently has helped loads and my tingling in my fingers has nearly gone. One thing I haven't seen mentioned here is that I've also used a peptide called thymusin beta 4 which I've used in the last week and things seem to be improving again after stalling for a few weeks.

Good info. I'm glad to know that eventually I should recover. So depressing to get an injury like this. From a bloody sneeze as well

Thanks.

[swygart2]

Hello, I'm new to this forum and really need some guidance with an injury I have. My sports are bodybuilding & swimming, I've been training for about 25 years. This is a new injury for me and I just don't know what to do?

It all started back in November, I woke up after sleeping awkwardly on my side and found that it was very difficult to extend my left arm. I had a dull throbbing pain between my deltoid and neck. The pain was quite bad and the maximum dose of ibuprofen & paracetamol with anti-inflammatories was required to manage it. After a week the pain subsided but I have been left with weakness in my left side.

My left triceps and left pectoral muscle are about 50% of the strength of the right hand side. My bench press has been reduced from a regular 160Kg to around 100Kg. Things have improved but only very slightly. My biggest concern is muscle atrophy. My left triceps and left pectoral muscle are visibly smaller, softer and wasting. I visited a chiropractor several times who suggested that I have a prolapsed disc in my neck.

I’ve started using a Tens EMS , electro stimulator unit on the triceps and pectoral to combat the wastage , but I don’t think it’s made a lot of difference. A guy in my gym had a similar experience after suffering whiplash in a car crash and lost control of his pectoral , but he regained control in about 3 months. I’m not in any pain , my problem is muscle wastage and loss of strength.

Please can anyone advise me on what I can do to improve this injury?[/QUOTE]

I'm 25 and felt a pinched nerve in lower trap about a month and a half ago. A week or two later I noticed the same loss of strength in my Pec and Tricept as the rest of you. I'm doing the doctor visits now .. nerve test right now actually. If anyone within this post has can fill me in on their healing process since this problem showed up plea[/WIKIPEDIA]se do so. I'm also unable to flex my left pec as it feels like a marshmellow after I get a pump. as you're all aware... the gym is depressing to say the least. I've been a competitive bodybuilder for 5 years now. Any follow up advice will be much appreciated

[kenny878]

apologize for bumping an old thread but i'm new here.
For years i've had a smaller right pec, lat, bicep, tricep, deltoid, quad, hamstring etc on my right side. Every muscle i have is smaller on my right than my left. My pec and lat also cramp up all the time just on the right side. I have scapular winging on my right but not my left. As another poster said earlier I also used to sleep on my right side with my arm under my pillow and I have all the same symptoms as he did. Does anyone have something similar going on? I just got an emg on my right arm and the doctor who did it said everything was fine. Frustrating to say the least. If anyone has any questions or info please give me a shout. Thanks

[LarryH0218]

I have the same problem as you. I also have a problem with my C7, L4 ad L5. I have lost so much muscle in my both Ticeps, right shoulder and center of my chest. It all seemed to just dry up and evapoate a few months. What an I Do?

[droopypec]

I'd like to thank all of you for creating and contributing to this thread. When I describe my symptoms to non exercisers, people just don't get it.

I've been lifting weights for over 30 years. I've never had an injury which stopped me dead in my tracks like this before.

Four months ago I did Ab Ripper X3 from P90X3. Specifically, I think it was the exercise where you are in forearm plank and you touch your knee to your tricep. (Sphinx Crunch Hold) My back started to burn near my neck, nearly unbearably, my form started to get sloppy, but I ignored the warning signs and finished the set to the very end.

(I never get flu shots, so that was not a factor.)

Two days later I woke up with numbness in my right index finger. There was a floating pain that moved from the top of my hand, to my forearm, to my bicep, to my tricep. My neck was in excruciating pain. My right lat and pectoral were also sore. The first two days, the neck pain bordered on unbearable, and all I could do was lie in bed.

I bought a chiropractic pillow so I could sleep at night. The neck seemed to be the source of my issues. Slowly, as each day passed, the pain lessened. I tried neck exercises, workouts, anything I could think of, but the symptoms followed what others describe as a pinched nerve in your neck.

The troublesome part is that before this happened, I could do about 60 pushups, 25 chin-ups, and my strength was symmetrical. Since the injury, my right pec feels like it is constantly spasmed. Right after the injury, I couldn't do any pushups. Chin-ups looked very asymmetrical with the left half over compensating for the right.

It was like the nightmare we all have- You wake up and you are back to normal and all your lifting gains are gone and you are weak.

At about 4 weeks, the index finger numbness went almost completely away. By 6 weeks, things were good enough to think about starting working out again.

I'm now at four months. I can do about 30 pushups, and 12 chin-ups, so I'm almost 1/2 way back to where I was. The right pec still doesn't flex the same as the left, and I still have a slight muscle pulled feeling my my right tricep, pec, lat. The right pec, tricep, and lat are soft and flabby compared to the right. The rapid atrophy seems to have stopped, but the recovery, if any, is slow. You can clearly see the asymmetry in the right pec flexing compared to the left. The left has a healthy bounce, and moves as one muscle. The right has individual striations that flex incompletely.

Dips, Pressing Movements, pull-ups, tricep moves, all way down. Curls are fine, slightly stronger there as a result of working out more to trying to recover.

One particular exercise- incline bench press on a machine with separate handles illustrates the injury perfectly. With 45 lbs, the right arm fails at about 10 reps. The left arm hasn't even got started, and just keeps going- it's at the strength level prior to the injury.

When the right arm fails with overhead dumbbell presses, it's like a light switch goes off in the nerve, and the dumbbell falls straight towards my head at an alarming speed.

We're all in this together. If anyone was able to get a surgical solution to work, please post any updates as to how things have changed over time. It sounds like some of us get better, and some of us don't. I can only be optimistic that I will continue to improve and keep pushing myself in that direction.

[droopypec]

Update:
I was originally diagnosed with a compressed C7 disc, and was referred to get an MRI.
The MRI showed my discs are fine and I have a "hyperintense syrinx" in my neck that is likely messing with my spinal cord.
I have followup scheduled with a neurosurgeon.

[droopypec]

Update:
The neurosurgeon said the lost power is never coming back.

Injuries to the brain and spinal cord do not repair themselves as do other nervous system injuries.

The syrinx was large enough that it had been there for many years. It is not clear if the exercise in question aggravated it, or was just a coincidence. The exercise on the day in question was not the cause of the syrinx.

[one sided injury]

wow sorry to hear that...

how did he say those form?

I have had similar symptoms to you. should I get an MRI?